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GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 00:21 (#363537)
Subject: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

Hi 9th generation new york farmer here but first year on my own (20 years old) Gonna plant two fields of alfalfa and want to inter seed oats for straw and grain, have a 5100 drill with no grass seeder or packers but does have culti-planter attachment, also have a cultimulcer(roller-harrow). Any suggestions on the best way to get both my alfalfa and oats into the ground? can i run both through the disk openers? any advice would be very helpful thank you.

yorkville1

Posted 4/23/2008 02:45 (#363572 - in reply to #363537)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

it has become common to direct seed alfalfa ( especially with the advent of round up ready alfalfa ). i still plant oats/alfalfa mix however. in the case of a field previously in corn stalks, i would do the following:
disc twice
level the field with a harrow/harrowgator or other implement

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 18:25 (#363848 - in reply to #363572)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

thanks for the advice, im going in onto two fields that had previously had soybeans, i usd a killefer off-set disk then went in with the roller harrow looks like a pretty nice bed, what do u think is better barley or oats for double cropping?

yorkville1

Posted 4/23/2008 02:57 (#363573 - in reply to #363537)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

i'll continue-messed up the last "send"
disc twice
level
drill ( i use a 15 foot tye drill with seeder attachment-generally trying to apply 2 bushels oats and 4 lbs. brome grass through the disc openers AND at the same time applying 10 lbs. alfalfa, 3 lbs. timothy, and 3 lbs orchard grass through the seeder )
level again (harrow or harrowgator-but cultimulcher would be fine as long as it didn't tend to collect trash--and be careful with whatever leveling means you use not to bury alfalfa more than just barely covering it )
to answer your question about running alfalfa through the disc openers-i doubt if that could be done ( you would first of all have the alfalfa too deep and second of all might have a problem with a uniform stand ). if you plan on doing this much, a drill with a seeder might be a good investment.

Brian sepa

Posted 4/23/2008 05:35 (#363579 - in reply to #363537)
Subject: RE: alfalfa and oats

Lancaster County, Pa.

Welcome to NAT. What part of NY are you from? I have some aquaintances up in the Lowellville area. Anyway, yes you can run alfalfa through the big box and dd openers, but there would be some problems with trying to run alfalfa and oats through at the same time.

1. I don't see how you could mix the two to get an even alfalfa stand

2. You are trying to plant at different depths. Alfalfa should be @ 1/4"

In our area nurse crops have come to be known as curse crops and are basically nonexistent. Here are some option as I see it. I don't know how many acres you are trying to cover, that may make some of these suggestions impractical.

1. Plant the oats, then use the drill to distribute the alfalfa seed but don't run the openers in the ground more than just scratching the surface. Follow up with a pass of the cultimulcher with the teeth up. Even this could get the alfalfa too deep if ground is too soft.

2. Plant oats, then find an ag supplier who could hydroseed the alfalfa, then use cultimulcher with teeth up.

3. If you would have acsess to a drill w/ grass box and packer wheels, rent it and do it all in one pass.

4. Better yet, depending on the field conditions, rent a no-till drill. Once you get your first successfull no-till alfalfa stand you'll never go back to working the ground.

Good luck.

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 18:20 (#363845 - in reply to #363579)
Subject: RE: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

thanks for the info, i think i would to run the alfalfa through the big box and DD openers barely into the dirt, i no i cant run both at same time but was thinking of running the oats then the alfalfa right after or do u think i should plant the oats harvest them and then just plant only alfalfa later in the year?

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 18:22 (#363846 - in reply to #363579)
Subject: RE: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

o and by the way im from geneva/waterloo new york, dad used to work on some farms in loweville growing up he was from alder creek/booneville. And how deep would i want to plant the oats. What do u think of planting barley instead of oats?

Ben D, N CA

Posted 4/23/2008 11:37 (#363732 - in reply to #363537)
Subject: RE: alfalfa and oats

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot

I'm sure that NY is a lot different than the irrigated high desert here, but I'll add my $.02 anyway. We have gone to planting straight alfalfa. Everybody used a cover crop (oats) here 10 years ago, now almost no one does. Reason is you are trying to grow a crop of alfalfa. A crop that here, can last 6-10 years or even longer. You only get one chance to get a good stand of alfalfa, and while the oats add tonnage to that 1st cut, they are a hindrance to the young alfalfa plants. No sense in shading out the crop you are trying to grow.

Now maybe you have other reasons why you need the nurse crop. Some guys here still use them in the blow sand to keep the sand from blowing. After being burned, plowed, disced and landplaned several times, the sandy ground can really blow if it doesn't have enough sprinklers to irrigate everyday. Still, if possible, most guys are just planting straight alfalfa. Can them prepare a good clean seedbed for the alfalfa, plant it at the correct depth, and not be compromising the alfalfa for the sake of a short term crop.

Hank, in Or

Posted 4/23/2008 12:48 (#363758 - in reply to #363537)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Bonanza, Or

I agree with Ben on the nurse crop. My preference is to plant a grain crop and either hay it or take the grain off and then seed into the grain stubble which is smooth firm seedbed in the fall. By seeding in the fall we get a full crop of grain or grain hay that year and then the next year a full crop of alfalfa.
With todays inputs you cannot afford to have a half crop. my .02

Hay Wilson in TX

Posted 4/23/2008 17:01 (#363826 - in reply to #363758)
Subject: Never did figure planting my own weeds was a good idea.

Little River, TX

Which is roughly what our two western hay growers are saying.

But than again many of the hay fields in the East are really only a sideline enterprise.

A more typical rotation is to follow a small grain with alfalfa, eventually followed by a large seed crop. I like to follow alfalfa a with alfalfa as it pays better than any program crop I can try, and my equipment cost will be a whole lot less.

I hope you managed to pick up some Jr College credits, mostly biology and chemistry so you will be able to understand the jargon used by the university types.

I strongly advise you forget watching TV and do a lot of research on the Web Here might be a good place to start. http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Forage/ProceedingsPage.htm

California may be a stretch for you but they have a lot of good information, Look at their Archives also. http://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/2007AlfalfaConference/

Phosphate and potash institute has enough information to keep you reading all next winter. http://www.ipni.net/ppiweb/bcrops.nsf

Oklahoma has about as good a text on alfalfa as you will find. http://alfalfa.okstate.edu/pub/alfalfa-production/guide1.pdf

Their web page is interesting reading but will not directly translate to your climate or soil. http://alfalfa.okstate.edu/

For hay harvest about as good as you will find for the humid climate is http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/pubnwsltr/TRIM/5811.pdf

I copied their charts, enlarged them and then copied the enlarged charts to graph paper. Read this every winter for the next 5 years. Each time you read it you will find something new.

Most of this stuff I found by searching the web. There is probably 100 times more than what I found, that I really need to know.

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 18:16 (#363844 - in reply to #363758)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

thanks for the help, so plant my oats now then harvest them then plant my alfalfa is what your saying ?

Hay Wilson in TX

Posted 4/23/2008 18:49 (#363853 - in reply to #363844)
Subject: I did not emphasize, The Here,

Little River, TX

We have never planted alfalfa into a small grain crop, though we have planted small grains into a thinning alfalfa stand.
Here small grains, oats, are usually harvested as hay.

We much prefere early fall for us as the time to plant alfalfa. Here a fall planted alfalfa field will persist 2 to 3 years longer than a spring planted field.

Here oats are planted in the fall, cut for hay in March/April or cut for grain in June.

Here weeds are hard on a seedling stand, and we consider small grains to be a weed for most hay purposes.

Edited by Hay Wilson in TX 4/23/2008 18:55

Hay Hud Ohio

Posted 4/23/2008 20:30 (#363876 - in reply to #363853)
Subject: The Here, and there

SW Ohio

Wilson guess you didn't see this one

http://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=51338&mid=361900#M361900

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 21:49 (#363921 - in reply to #363853)
Subject: RE: I did not emphasize, The Here,

Waterloo, N.Y.

thank you very much for the info, think im gonna with just oats or barley and then plant only alfalfa in august or so wen the grain is harvested.

Hay Hud Ohio

Posted 4/24/2008 06:49 (#364112 - in reply to #363921)
Subject: Here,

SW Ohio

Where in NY? My brother lives in Salmon Creek, just north of Ithica, knows just about every dairy farm for 150 miles.

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/25/2008 19:26 (#365257 - in reply to #364112)
Subject: RE: Here,

Waterloo, N.Y.

im in geneva/waterloo 45 minutes north of ithaca, we havent been a dairy farm in 35+ plus years though. If i plant my alfalfa now can i get one cutting this year?

Hay Hud Ohio

Posted 4/26/2008 08:05 (#365627 - in reply to #365257)
Subject: RE: Here,

SW Ohio

You should get more than one, first would be weedy "here" but still hay, and a second would be standard, maybe a third if every thing clicks. I really like alfalfa to bloom hard before cut the first time, gives it a chance to establish itself before you start stressing it, but weeds will come in that time, have had fields persist for over ten years and remain very productive when cut timing is paid attention to. Also give it time to grow before frost sets in this fall.

Geneva? Isn't that where T-22 is manufactured. And home to a right wing supremicy group? or am I thinking of the Ithica shotgun works? How far from Kingman? Rjaymons? Fessendons? Triangle Resturant? Do Turicks grow veggies up your way?

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/26/2008 10:37 (#365724 - in reply to #365627)
Subject: RE: Here,

Waterloo, N.Y.

yup t-22 is made right down the road from bio-works, not aware of right wing group lol and sorry not familiar with those names only because i am just getting started farming

Jay in WA

Posted 4/23/2008 20:01 (#363868 - in reply to #363844)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Pasco WA.

Oats + alfalfa = a poor crop. The oats will choke out the alfalfa. If you need the oats for cover make sure and kill them before their too big. Here we would harvest the grain then plant the alfalfa in August.

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/23/2008 21:47 (#363914 - in reply to #363868)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

yea thats the info im getting i think im just gonna plant oats or barley then put in alfalfa in august like u say.

Hank, in Or

Posted 4/23/2008 21:55 (#363924 - in reply to #363914)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Bonanza, Or

That would be a good choice. Now mind you when we western guys talk about drilling alfalfa in Aug it is all irrigated and we want the alfalfa in the 5 leaf stage before the 1st frost so it will make it through the winter. Here where I am in warm balmy Se. Oregon where the current temp is 38 and with windchill it is 17 I will not plant new alfalfa after Sept 10th to achieve the 5 leaf stage before the 1st hard fall frost.

Ben D, N CA

Posted 4/23/2008 22:38 (#363973 - in reply to #363924)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot

Balmy........ Warm........... LOL. At least somebody still has a sense of humor about the weather. I've heard near ever word used to describe the weather lately, but those two words didn't make it. Too many weeks of wind is getting to us. I'm really sick of all of the dirt blowing, feel like I'm in the dust bowl at times. Wind is making it real hard to get sprinklers going, glad I don't have any winter wheat that is trying to blow out.

As far as planting in the fall, are you irrigated or have dependable rains then? Like Hank said we are irrigated here, so planting in the late summer is possible. Tough to get the seed placed right in stubble, but if you can keep it wet it comes out nice. One of my customers planted a field last fall, all he did was burn the stubble, airflow the seed on and started the sprinklers. Kept it moist and it looks great this spring.

Hank, in Or

Posted 4/23/2008 23:12 (#364013 - in reply to #363973)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Bonanza, Or

I failed to mention that the warm, balmy weather I spoke of is here in the house, in front ot the heater!!

GEMLAKEny

Posted 4/25/2008 19:27 (#365259 - in reply to #363924)
Subject: Re: alfalfa and oats

Waterloo, N.Y.

i think we have similiar weather we dont have irrigation and dont usually need it though. If i planted my alfalfa now do u think i could get one cutting this year?

haymaker

Posted 4/24/2008 08:20 (#364154 - in reply to #363537)
Subject: I like using oats for a cover crop

NE Colorado

If you don't plant the oats too thick, around 30 lbs to the acre, they work fine for getting alfalfa established in the spring. Especially if your ground is relatively clean and you don't have all kinds of weeds sprouting at the same time.

I have tried direct seeding and I have tried spraying the oats out and all I get is less forage production and not a better or longer lived stand. Moreover, demand for oat hay is really good where I am, dairy farmers like it for their dry cows.

Broadleaf herbicides such as Pursuit or Raptor are way overrated for what they do and what they cost, though grass herbicides like Select do well.

I have also found out that fall seeding is way overrated. Soil as well as daytime temperatures are still often very high and I have gotten skips due to damping off or pythium rot of newly emerged seedlings. Moreover, unless one moldboard plows quite deep following a grain crop, there often is a lot of volunteer grain to deal with.

Hay Wilson in TX

Posted 4/24/2008 20:18 (#364535 - in reply to #364154)
Subject: True. !

Little River, TX

For your soil, climate, and management style or needs.

Unfortunately you have not mentioned your soil, or climate you are challenged with.

Management style or needs can vary considerably within any one soil and climate restrictions.

Here s spring seeded alfalfa crop will have developed less than a 6 foot long system and the crop will suffer considerably with our lack of rain during our hot July and August. It is summer drought that terminates an alfalfa stand, here not our winter conditions.

Fall seeded alfalfa, here, will have less weed competition than spring seeded. Consider this weeds here have a 12 month growing season but our spring weeds are the most competitive.
Here fall planted alfalfa will be ready for it's first cutting in late April or early May. Established alfalfa first cutting of the season in Late March or Early April, depending on the breaks in the rains.

A blanket statement can lead to mistakes by others who are not familiar with growing conditions in Alabama, or Iowa, or the California low desert.

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